The Argument: Justifying High Placement of Revan
By darthbane77 62 Comments
So recently, my placement of Revan has been a topic of some comedy to people, both here and on KMC. Here, I will share a thread I made that was created in hopes of giving a good explanation of WHY I hold Revan as highly as I do. I don't expect anybody's opinions to be altered by this, it's simply a detailed explanation.
I posted this initially in general discussion, but decided to make it a blog entry. Now for the argument, why I think Revan can be easily compared to the likes of Yoda and ROTS Sidious.
First, we look at his best feats.
-Resisting and somewhat overcoming Emperor Vitiate, one of (if not THE) most powerful Sith Lords of all time.
-Matching and, initially, defeating a strike team consisting of all 8 SWTOR protags.
-Barely falling to a second, likewise powerful, strike team IMMEDIATELY after the above battle.
-While incredibly weakened, contending and posing a legitimate threat to the 4 Imperial characters in SWTOR on the Foundry.
-Non-combat showings
- Ultimately ending on a straight up comparison of Yoda and Revan's displayed power, and conclusions based on those comparisons and scaling.
He has other incredibly impressive feats, but I'll focus on these four specifically for now. So, let me elaborate.
First I'm going to establish why I believe Vitiate is an equal to Sidious post ROTS, likely much closer to ROTJ Sidious. Just a real quick, basic outline of how powerful Vitiate is.
Note: SoR Revan is not a Jedi or Sith
Revan, as of SoR, is neither Jedi or Sith, he is the leader of the Order of Revan, and as such is a Revanite.
Vitiate's Greatest Hits:
It should be noted that Vitiate, when he drained Ziost, was weakened. He'd only just been given enough power to actually move freely (via the events of "Shadow of Revan".) Yet, despite being weakened, was able to mentally dominate the entirety of the population of Ziost, and was able to drain the entire planet (arguably) without needing to use his Thought Bomb-esque ritual. This in turn means that, even weakened, spirit Vitiate is much more powerful than he was when he dominated the wills of 8000 Sith Lords on Medriaas/Nathema.
Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry "Death of a World"
The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.
Star Wars The Old Republic Revan
He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Easily defeating a powerful Jedi Strike team which he also mentally dominated.
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4563787-0523714095-GSH6h.gif
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http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4563796-7186109152-6fSC2.gif
Mental Domination:
As the Sith Emperor gradually dominates the free will of everyone on Ziost, both Lana Beniko, Minister of the newly formed Sith Intelligence, and Theron Shan, a spy for the Galactic Republic, are trying to stop the chaos.
Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)
For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.
The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Combat Superiority
Defeating Revan, a Force user arguably on par with Yoda and ROTS Sidious (as I am endeavoring to prove.)
"The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him....
As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Killing the entirety of the Dark Council save for Nyriss and two others, nine of them were presumably killed, easily, by Vitiate. This is comparable to, or superior, ROTS Sidious blitzing the B-Team.
"It wasn't just Nyriss who was attacked. The Emperor killed them all."
"The files you showed me listed five current members of the Dark Council plotting against him,"
Meetra said, looking to clarify. "Are you saying the Emperor's Guard wiped out all five in the space of a single day?"
"I said he killed them all," Scourge replied. Revan asked. "He attacked a dozen of the most powerful Sith Lords in their seats of power simultaneously? How many troops does he have?"
"All twelve members of the Dark Council—even those who weren't part of the conspiracy. He wanted to send a message no one would ever forget."
"How is that possible?"
"The Imperial Guard were only unleashed on Nyriss and two others. The Emperor must have assumed they were the ones least likely to answer his summons. The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive."
From (Lord Scourge, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
He does so again, this time against the entire Council. Vitiate does this incredibly easily, the Council members (barring Lokess who was captured) were all seemingly killed instantly by Vitiate. Like the above feat, this is also comparable to ROTS Sidious' handling of the B-Team.
During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.
It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.
A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Marka Ragnos, the most powerful of the ancient Dark Lords, acknowledges Vitiate's incredible power while Vitiate is still a young boy.
With all of Mediraas under his power, Tenebrae traveled to Korriban and met Sith Lord Marka Ragnos, ruler of all Sith. Marka Ragnos recognized Tenebrae's incredible power and named the boy Lord Vitiate.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
There's also the possibility of Vitiate, 50 years after the Revan novel, defeating Zakuul's pantheon of gods. Izax and Tyth are the notable names. These beings were made as superweapons, and were responsible for the destruction of entire worlds, and Vitiate was more powerful than them. In fact, one of Valkorion's titles, "Slayer of Izax" indicates he actually killed Izax, the most powerful member of the pantheon.
Superiority to Darth Nihilus
Vitiate is, canonically (Legends canon), more powerful than Darth Nihilus, a world devouring Dark Side monster.
Kreia speaks of Nihilus here, comparing him to the "Ancient Sith", which "Star Wars: The Old Republic" revealed as Emperor Vitiate and his Sith Empire. Nihilus is stated as only rivaling SOME of the Ancient Sith by the end of KOTOR II, meaning Nihilus is likely below Sith such as Ajunta Pall and Karness Muur.
We know Kreia is referring to Sith like Pall, Muur, Ragnos, etc, based on this quote below, where she refers to the identically as the "ancient Sith" and really, there's not anyone else she could be comparing Nihilus to.
Chris Avellone also confirms that what Kreia says in regards to the ancient Sith, is accurate.
"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."
- Chris Avellone
Vitiate is stated to be the most powerful Force user to have lived up until this point, making him more powerful than the Ancient Sith to which Kreia compared Nihilus, which obviously means Vitiate is more powerful than Darth Nihilus.
The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")
The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
It's also important to note that Kreia was likely referring to Vitiate when she referred to the "true Sith Empire" hidden in the Unknown Regions. Kreia speaks of the "true Sith" and the "ancient Sith" as one and the same. Meaning Vitiate is included in all of Kreia's words about the ancient Sith. Vitiate is well known to have been alive during the time of the ancient Sith, having been born prior to the death of Marka Ragnos. Meaning not only that Vitiate is one of the ancient Sith that Kreia believes Nihilus to be inferior to, but also, that Vitiate is factually the most powerful ancient Sith to have ever lived. So Vitiate should be at least reasonably more powerful than Nihilus, if not solidly.
Vitiate/Valkorion is not a Sith:
Vitiate/Valkorion is not technically a true member of Sith society.
As the Immortal Emperor Valkorion, Vitiate sheds his past for a new life, abandoning Sith dogma. He did this very early on, and had been constructing Zakuul as an empire long before he fought Revan, three hundred years prior to the events that unfold in SWTOR and its expansions.
Here is a link to Vitiate's Respect Thread, so you can examine for yourself how powerful Vitiate is. Credit to S_W_LeGenD for making Vitiate/Valkorion's Respect Thread.
1: Revan vs Vitiate:
Most people view this fight as a stomp, that Vitiate easily defeated Revan and that there's nothing more to talk about. I disagree, to an extent.
Revan is, quite obviously, a superior combatant to Vitiate in a traditional sense. In that Revan is far more well rounded than Vitiate is, as well, Revan has many years of experience fighting wars to draw on. This superior combative ability and experience allowed Revan to easily deflect Vitiate's lightning, lightning that is, via scaling just as powerful as that of Nyriss, which was capable of turning Meetra Surik and Scourge to ash. When Vitiate finally decides to stop playing around, he briefly charges a lightning storm, which means this is an attack that is VASTLY more powerful than lightning that is already "infinitely" superior that which is capable of ashing a powerful Jedi and Sith Lord. Revan is able to mitigate the initial brunt of the lightning's destructive power. An attack that, by all rights, should have turned Revan to ash, failed to do so. What this means, is that Revan was powerful enough that he was able to nullify most of the lightning's power, managing to escape with nothing but 2nd degree burns. This is the single most effective thing anyone has ever done against a full powered Vitiate, even powerful Jedi like the Hero of Tython/Outlander were incapable of resisting a full strength blast of lightning from a Vitiate that was in full health.
Revan absorbing and surviving much of the lightning.
"The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him....
As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Let's also keep in mind, the supplementary material. Which states that Revan nearly killed Vitiate. While this needs to be taken with a grain of salt (given the text obviously does not support the below quotes) it should be taken as meaning that, at very least, Revan was the only person seen thus far (including the Outlander) that was ever as successful in open, single combat, as he was.
"Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
"The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
"The events of Shadow of Revan give him the boost he needs to become active again."
"For this, we just have to look at the last person who ever stood up to Vitiate at anywhere near the level that the player's character did on Ziost: Revan. When Revan took a crack at him, Vitiate locked him up for centuries, picking and prodding at his mind the entire time. So we know that Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion doesn't destroy people who are a legitimate threat to him; he's fascinated by them. "
-Charles Boyd. Link to full comment here: Full comment (#56)
So based on what we see in the fight, the circumstances surrounding it, and supplementary quotes, it's safe to say that Revan, as of his fight with Vitiate, while not comparable in power, had the necessary skill to have been able to go toe to toe with Vitiate on even ground. So how does this put Revan on Yoda and Sidious' level? Well I'm glad you asked. Vitiate, even as of the novel, still has feats that approach Sidious level (many of which I went over in the above section written entirely for Vitiate), and given that it's likely that Vitiate didn't grow much between the events of the novel and the events of vanilla SWTOR (because Vitiate shows no apparent growth, and I don't recall any sources confirming he'd become more powerful), that Vitiate was already on the same level as ROTJ Sidious himself (due to having a planet's worth of power+the combined strength of 8000 Sith Lords and every other living thing that died on Medriaas during Vitiate's ritual). Putting Revan at around the same level as Yoda and ROTS Sidious via scaling.
2: The Duel at the Temple of Sacrifice
The duel at the temple is one of Revan's greatest feats, in this battle he fought and actually overcame the combined power and ability of the 8 main characters. This includes the Hero of Tython, Emperor's Wrath II, Barsen'thor, and Darth Nox, all of whom have feats (by the events of Shadow of Revan) approaching or already on the same level as some earlier versions of Darth Vader. So 4 of these combatants were (arguably) nearing the same level as varying versions of Vader. And the other 4, the non Force users, consisted of the very best operatives that the Empire and the Republic had, all four of which who had killed Force users in the past.
Here is the link to Vader's RT, so a comparison can be made between the protags and Vader. Credit to Zapan871 for making Vader's Respect Thread. The link leads to Part One of Vader's RT, there are links to Parts Two and Three located there.
I will endeavor to make a separate thread later on, comparing the protags to Vader, but I don't want to do that in this specific thread, due to how much longer the thread will end up being if I do. I will, however, include a few feats for each of the protags, and highlight some of the more impressive scaling that they each have as well.
Examples of Vader level feats by the Force using protags.
Hero of Tython
Ragdolling Vitiate's weakened Voice-
Keep in mind that Vitiate, despite being weakened, is still one of, if not the, most powerful Sith in the Empire. Placing him above the likes of Darth Jadus, Marr, Nox, or any other Sith alive at the time. This is where scaling comes in. Here are some of Jadus' feats.
Shaking a Harrower Dreadnought with his rage, something that doesn't even require him to make a gesture.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4481290-2355577766-T29qU.gif
Jadus holds together his ship with the Force, after it had supposedly been destroyed by an explosion.
“All military channels are reporting in. The Dominator has been completely destroyed.”
—Watcher Two (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
“Nothing could have survived that explosion. All sources confirm. Casualties are one hundred percent.”
—Watcher Two (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
“The shvash gas incinerated only part of the ship. My power held together the remains.”
—Darth Jadus (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
This feat is more than comparable to the best that Darth Vader has to offer (such as collapsing a Cathedral), and because Vitiate is still more powerful at this point than Jadus, it places even a weakened Vitiate, on the same level as Darth Vader. The fact that the Hero of Tython managed to defeat this weakened incarnation of Vitiate, means that he is at least comparable to Vader.
Darth Nox
Ragdolling Darth Thanaton.
Some of Thanaton's feats for reference.
Destroying stone with TK while vastly pre-prime.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4303945-thanaton+ability+tk+%287%29.png
One shotting a Gargantuan Terentatek while vastly pre prime. Keep in mind, Terentateks are heavily resistant, almost immune, to the Force. The ability to one-shot a normal Terentatek, let alone a Gargantuan, with a Force power is highly impressive.
Demonstrates the ability to levitate, and even fly, using the kinetic energy in his lightning. This suggests that Thanaton's lightning is incredibly power, when also considered alongside his insta-killing a Terentatek.
Based on this, Thanaton may or may not be Vader level, but his displays of power in the Force place him at least as a rival to the likes of Count Dooku (at least in the use of lightning), who is extremely powerful in his own right.
Barsen'thor
Defeating the First Son, who seemed to have close to the same level of power as the weakened Voice of Vitiate that was killed by the HoT-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPbwxwTXfU
Comparing the First Son with the likes of Vitiate's weakened Voice, and scaling him as at least equal to the Barsen'thor himself, the First Son should be at least within Vader's wheelhouse.
Emperor's Wrath II
Defeating Sel-Makor in the body of Emperor Vitiate, Sel-Makor being an incredibly powerful entity that physically changed the landscape around where his center of power was located. The Sel-Makor possessed Voice of Vitiate, while less powerful than normal, is still incredibly powerful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_knvnsKr2o
Now, back to Revan.
What's interesting about this is that Revan not only fought them, but he was beating them for a time. On multiple occasions during this fight, Revan was capable of ragdolling members of the team, even going as far ragdolling multiple members of the team at the same time. On top of that, Revan displayed the ability to teleport, which would exponentially increase his combat effectiveness. Here are some of the things Revan did during that fight, such as easily throwing stone pillars at the members of the team, throwing multiple of them at once. Revan's weakened spirit was able to lift a heavy stone walkway, and the Returned Revan was able to telekinetically control multiple lightsabers at once. He was also capable of leaving behind aberrations (large blobs) of pure Dark Side energy (a form of sorcery) that acted essentially as landmines. He can also create a protection bubble, that temporarily makes him invulnerable.
http://static1.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4788760-2924254181…
http://static4.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4737216-4958082507…
http://static1.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4737226-1301435532…
http://static3.comicvine.com/…/11114…/4306234-revan+yeah.gif
http://static2.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4777168-0711344804…
http://static5.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4760909-5226115068…
http://static5.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4737229-3713252642…
But the best part about this, is that Revan actually SUCCEEDED in killing members of the team, as evidenced here:
Boon of the Spirit
"Target has been recently resurrected by an outside force, and cannot be resurrected in this manner again."
The fact that this event is scripted, means that every PC is offered one resurrection. By extension, this could also mean that Revan succeeded in killing EVERY member of the strike team that fought him in the temple, and the he was only driven back because he was forced to fight them a second time.
As seen above, Revan actually did succeed in killing members of the team at the Temple, and the Spirit (Light Side) Revan, had to resurrect them from the dead. This has other implications as well, that Revan, even weakened as a spirit, was capable of bringing people back from the dead. This is more impressive than even Darth Krayt or Cade Skywalker's displays of Dark Transfer, and is also as impressive as Sidious' being able to repeatedly kill and revive people as a form of torture.
Now, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of quotes for this fight, but some of the other quotes I'll post in the next section are retroactive and can be used to cover this fight. These are not all of the things Revan did in this specific duel, but these are enough to give an idea of what I'm talking about.
3: Battle at the Forgotten Terrace
This was Revan's last actual duel of his life, as Revan ultimately became one with the Force after this fight was over. But the things he does are still highly impressive. Keep in mind, this duel happens AFTER the duel in the Temple of Sacrifice. So, by this time, Revan is no longer at his full strength, he's exhausted and hurt from his previous duel, which he is stated to have barely lost in. Keep in mind, when Revan says the team barely managed to drive him back, he's not saying it out of hubris, Revan FACTUALLY managed to kill members of that team, and if it hadn't been for Revan's Light Side, his Spirit, Shadow Revan would have succeeded in killing off the entire team at the Temple of Sacrifice.
"You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me?"
―Revan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
For evidence that Revan was, in fact, wounded during this battle, look to this clip from the "Temple of Sacrifice" operation. Revan suffers from the backfiring of his Machine Core, essentially taking the brunt of a power source that has the strength to kill all life within a 1 kilometer range. This is a level of power that I'm convinced would hurt ANYONE, and is obvious proof that Revan was wounded by the time of the duel on the Forgotten Terrace. When Revan is injured, he shouts "No, I will not be denied!"
The event specifically happens between 8:10 and 8:16.
Supporting quotes:
"[Revan has] suffered a powerful backlash while channeling an immense amount of Force energy."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic
"Upon successful completion, [Revan will deal] massive damage to enemies within 1km. Dealing sufficient damage will break this channel. Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic
These are some of the things Revan does in this duel. Protection bubbles, teleportation, Force in Balance, ragdolling all but one member of the strike team (there are other things he does as well that I will show.) This strike team consists of: The HoT (presumably), Satele Shan, Darth Marr, Jakarro, Theron Shan, Lana Beniko, and Shae Viszla; some of the most powerful and skilled people in the galaxy aside from the protagonists themselves. He also used a unique variation of Force Drain that lifted the target and held them in place as he drained them. As well as Force Destruction.
http://static1.comicvine.com/…/…/4256088-revan+teleport2.gif
http://static4.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4431281-3931070021…
"[The strike team member's] life and force power are being drained [by Revan]"
―Star Wars: The Old Republic
"Destroying all... [The strike team is] slowly being destroyed by Revan."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic
http://static5.comicvine.com/…/1111401…/4255498-revan+tk.gif
Force in Balance:
http://static3.comicvine.com/…/…/4255510-revan+tk+insane.gifhttp://static4.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4542284-9254045775…
Based on these following in-game quotes, we can deduce that the second strike team was very close to being matched or overpowered by Revan. Given that the Revan in this fight was hurt and exhausted by his previous duel in the Temple, and we already know for a fact that Revan was capable of killing off the first, more powerful, strike team.
"[Spirit] Revan wants me to succeed [and defeat Revan], but claims I can't do it on my own... We'll need our full strength to defeat Revan when the time comes. Don't do anything to jeopardize that."
―The Emperor's Wrath (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"But we aren't finished yet. There is one element even our combined militaries will be unable to stop."
"Revan."
―Darth Marr and the Emperor's Wrath (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"So much power... be strong!"
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"He is strong with the Force! Argh!"
―Darth Marr (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"Grant me strength! Keep... fighting...!"
―Satele Shan (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"I wouldn't miss a fight this good... Tough Sucker! Heck of a fight..."
―Shae Vizla (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"Satele Shan has been incapacitated... [The strike team has] lost Battle Meditation."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic
I think I missed a couple of things from this fight, but for the sake of moving alone, I will move to my next point.
4: Defense of the Foundry
After being freed from the Emperor's captivity by a Republic strike team, Revan goes off to the Foundry, an ancient Rakatan space station that's basically the Star Forge on a smaller scale. Revan has just been in captivity for 300 years, at constant mental war with Vitiate AND the Dread Masters.
"Revan played on the Emepror's caution and patience, constantly pushing them to the forefront of his enemy's mind. He augmented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the Republic was reckless and dangerous."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
"Finally, the Emperor permitted the war to end in a truce- his ruthless tactics unknowingly calmed by his mental link with the Jedi Master Revan, a legendary Republic hero..."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
After 300 years of constant captivity and mental torture, Revan's mind was almost broken, and he physically would have also been weaker. So keep in mind that during this fight, Revan would have been weaker than he was when he fought Vitiate and weaker than he was in "Shadow of Revan." Meaning it's more than reasonable to guess that Revan would be more than a little rusty. And given the fracture already forming in his mind, which would eventually lead to the creation of the "Shadow" it's also reasonable to say Revan's mental state aboard the Foundry was also weakened.
Here are some of the things Revan does during this fight, protection bubbles, lightning, and advanced displays of telekinesis, among other things.
http://static4.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4073008-4280414587…
http://static5.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4777952-9559829992…
http://static4.comicvine.com/…/111140132/4595313-2577311994…
On top of everything Revan did combatively, he was considered a great threat by Darth Malgus, the Sith Empire's greatest warrior.
"You must not underestimate the Republic defenses, or the Foundry's Jedi Master. He is the greatest threat."
―Darth Malgus (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Now, these are only my arguments centered around combat and outright/comparative power. Next, I will elaborate on his non-combat showings. This section will be significantly shorter than the combat showings.
Non-Combat Showings:
The Returned Revan (SoR Revan) causes a galaxy wide disturbance in the Force. It can be noted that Darth Maul's return also caused a disturbance in the Force, but Maul's return was never implied to be or described as being, as potent or powerful as the one Revan caused. So read this and take it as you will.
"There's something in the Force that I've never felt before. It exists nowhere and everywhere at once. Writhing, growing. I think I sense this "growth" because I'm tied to it somehow, maybe by association to Darth Arkous. I think… I think the Empire's in terrible danger."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"If I'm wrong, it means my instincts are now deeply flawed. Considering the strange disturbance I sense that continues to pervade the Force, I worry that these concerns are merely the figments of a deranged mind."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"The Force moves through the Emperor's Hand in a manner that few others experience. For us, the Force is an intricate tapestry woven into our very essence. That tapestry has become flawed. I speak of a persistent disturbance. A cyst, dense and tangled and unpleasant. It began small and nearly imperceptible but has been growing ever larger... the source of this basal disturbance is of the gravest concern to us..."
―The Emperor's Hand (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"The Force roils and convulses like never before. I reached out to study its peculiar activity, and in turn it showed me what is to come. You stand on a moon, defiantly, before one who is not one. You do not stand alone, but you fail all the same."
―Spindrall (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
"No. They weren't in charge. The disturbance in the Force, I still feel it. It's... arrived."
―Lana Beniko (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Corrupting entire planets with the Force:
"Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith. "
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
"Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle... Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence."
―Star Wars: Chronicles of the Old Republic
Revan was able to harness the power of Malachor V, using it to create Dark Jedi and other servants. The fact he was able to do this, means he can create and manipulate Dark Side nexus' and possibly, do the same with Wounds in the Force.
"Revan knew the power of such places… and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others, of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side. Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?"
―Kreia (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
The Force in Balance
"He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
"Revan is a powerful Force user who draws on both the light and dark side of the Force... I always felt that Revan was special because he learned to balance and call on both the light and dark sides of the Force."
―Drew Karpyshyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan Author)
"Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
6. Comparison Between Revan and Yoda:
Here, I'll compare Revan and Yoda's uses of the Force. specifically, Telekinesis and Tutaminis. Given that these two abilities are the best two to use for this comparison.
Telekinesis:
Yoda's greatest display of power in telekinesis is here, when he's seen lifting dozens (possibly hundreds) of battle droids simultaneously during the Battle of Coruscant. Yoda also easily manipulates CIS troop carrier ships, even being able to easily push one across the ground, despite its weight and despite the immense amount of friction that would likely have been involved here.
However, Yoda's TK feat in the Microseries is somewhat of an outlier (though not entirely). As we see Yoda have great difficulty, only a few years prior, struggling to lift a crane, with the script for AOTC stating that it required "every scrap" of Yoda's power to lift the crane. This is reciprocated in the film, where Yoda shows OBVIOUS exhaustion and strain from lifting it. This could be attributed to being tired from fighting Dooku, but that's another argument entirely. As well, Yoda also fails to lift all of the Muntuur Stones, which should weigh far less than what the CIS Landing Craft weighs. Ultimately, the feat seen in the Microseries, is an outlier, and does not line up with Yoda's other feats and displays of power, and thus, should be taken with a grain of salt.
"YODA concentrates harder. Slowly, the crane rises. The SOUND OF THE ENGINES increases. YODA exerts every scrap of his powers. The crane lifts clear of ANAKIN and is thrown to the ground. DOOKU'S Sail Ship takes off. OBI-WAN and ANAKIN struggle to the exhausted YODA, but it's too late."
-AOTC Script
Now for Revan's Meteor Feat:
Revan's Meteors vs Non-Exaggerated Feats
So now, we've established that Yoda's most impressive feat is factually an outlier and an exaggeration. Meaning now, we get to compare it to Revan's most impressive Telekinetic ability. The force with which the meteors are thrown, is obviously EXTREMELY high, given that fact the that these are seemingly solid, huge, chunks of rock. The ability to throw them so hard that they shatter on impact with the ground is EXTREMELY impressive. Especially when compared to Yoda's more solid feats, it should be plainly obvious that throwing several meteors at once/in rapid succession, is FAR more impressive than legitimately struggling to lift a crane, or failing to lift all the Muntuur Stones. Keep in mind as well, that Revan as of his battle on the Foundry, had been a prisoner for centuries, and was severely weakened when he performed this feat. This indicates that, in his "Reborn" or "Shadow" iterations, Revan would be capable of doing MUCH more.
Revan's Meteors vs Yoda's Army
Now, we can also compare the microseries feat specifically (since I know people will still try to bring it up) without any of the science (the science comes later), and still come to the same result as we did with the Crane Feat. Yoda lifting a couple dozen droids and moving a CIS Landing Craft, LOGICALLY, does not compare to the ability to casually grabbing and throwing meteors so hard that they shatter upon impact with the ground, and again, keep in mind that Revan was weakened during this battle. Yoda also was able to push one of the CIS Landing Crafts along the ground, which as I said before, is an impressive feat. Now, compare Yoda's Microseries feat to something like Exar Kun lifting a Deriphan Class Battleship, or the Outlander, Lana Beniko and Senya Tirall, lifting the Gravestone. Both of those are feats where a Force user(s) that was "weaker" than Yoda, lifted an object that was larger and heavier than what Yoda's microseries feat was. Now, if there are Force users like that, who have singular or collective TK greater than Yoda's microseries feat, why then should we consider Revan's Meteor Feat to be inferior? And why then should we assume Yoda to be superior to Revan in the Force? Quite simply, we shouldn't, as there's no logic behind it at all. Anyway, back to the microseries feat, there was no damage done to the carrier, he just pushed it. He then proceeded to simply move a Craft that was already in flight, into the one he was pushing, causing them to be destroyed. This isn't really as impressive as some might make it out to be, given that the Craft that was flying, had its thrusters active, and would have been more easily manipulated than a stationary object, or something that had been resisting Yoda's pull. This is a far cry from the ability to casually toss meteors and disintegrate them on impact with the ground. Ultimately, both logical thinking AND science point towards Revan being more powerful; and it's something that really shouldn't be so hard to fathom anyone thinking.
Ultimately, the microseries is exaggerated and untrustworthy, especially given Yoda's feat is never seen or mentioned in any source that is not known to be exaggerated (i.e, ROTS Novelization, Comic Book, etc). Which means the best (TK) feats we have for Yoda, are these:
Where Yoda simply stops the fall of some boulders.
Or, Yoda stopping Senate Chamber platforms being thrown at him by Sidious, with clearly less force than what a weakened Revan was capable of throwing his meteors with.
Senate Pods (start around 2:50)
It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
Both of which are feats that really aren't at all as impressive as Revan shattering meteors on impact with the ground as he throws them. You could argue that Sidious was more powerful than Vitiate, and so Yoda's Senate Pod feat scales up from that, but as I highlighted in the opening to this blog, Vitiate is HIGHLY comparable to Sidious, and can easily be argued as ROTS Sidious' superior. However, that is a point to analyze in a different thread.
The only logical conclusion, when feats are compared, is that Revan is more powerful than Yoda or is at least HIGHLY comparable/equal, plain and simple.
Tutaminis:
This will be pretty straight forward. As we've seen, based on feats, Revan's raw power that can be used at any given time is quite a bit more than Yoda's. So, for this, we need to focus mainly on Sidious and Vitiate, with scaling they get from the displayed power of Yoda and Revan respectively.
"The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him....
As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Given the kind of power Revan has demonstrated in a weakened state (as we just went over) this version of Revan would logically have been FAR more powerful, and thus capable of much more impressive feats. So, obviously, Vitiate's power here was much more than Revan's own strength was able to handle, and Revan ultimately was only able to mitigate enough of the lightning to prevent himself from being turned to ash. Which leads me to another point, Revan's feat of easily absorbing and rebuking a charged storm from Darth Nyriss, a Sith Lord that was capable of one-shotting both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge, at the same time.
"Revan emerged from the cell. He Had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he word the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face. A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies.
Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it. Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide.
He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power. "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."
Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
And, as per the text, Vitiate was "infinitely" more powerful than Nyriss was. So again, Revan, while hindered by Dromund Kaas' Dark Side Nexus, was able to perform what is one of the most impressive feats of tutaminis in the mythos. Even the likes of Dooku was unable to ever incinerate someone with lightning, meaning Nyriss' lightning is on the same level as lightning used by people like Starkiller and Darth Plagueis, both of whom have similar feats. (Note that I am NOT saying Nyriss is a Plagueis/Starkiller level combatant overall, ONLY that her lightning is comparable.) Now, given that Vitiate's lightning is "infinitely" more powerful than Nyriss, and that it actually BROKE Revan's guard with tutaminis, Vitiate's lightning is quite obviously some of the most powerful stuff we've ever seen. And given Revan's established power vs Yoda's (based solely on their best TK feats) the power that Vitiate presented, is logically much more potent that what Sidious used against Yoda. It must have been, otherwise, Revan would have just as easily batted away Vitiate's lightning as he did Nyriss'. The only conclusion is that, based on scaling, Vitiate at this time was more powerful than Sidious as of ROTS, likely much closer to Sidious in ROTJ, or beyond. And given the comparison between Yoda and Revan here, and taking into consideration the difficulty with which these tutaminis feats were performed, it's obvious that Revan's accomplishment here is more impressive.
For reference, this is Yoda's use of tutaminis vs Sidious as per the ROTS novelization:
It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi. It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just—
didn't—
have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves. They had become new.
While the Jedi—
The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war. The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?
He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength. The shadow released its power for an instant, long enough only to whirl away through the air and alight upon one of the delegation pods as it flew past, and the creature leapt to follow—
Half a second too slow.
The shadow unleashed its lightning while the creature was still in the air, and the little green freak took its full power. The shock blasted him backward to crash against the podium, and he fell.
He fell a long way.
The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod's rail. Old he might have been, but there was nothing wrong with his eyesight; he scanned the wreckage below, and he did not see a body.
- Revenge of the Sith
After this, after taking the full brunt of Sidious' lightning, Yoda is mostly OK. Really, he's unharmed. Which means, based on we've established above, Sidious' lightning was simply NOT as powerful as Vitiate's. And Yoda's tutaminis is simply NOT as potent as Revan's was against such a powerful opponent. Again, allow me to reiterate that Yoda emerged from this engagement almost completely unscathed, with really only his clothes suffering minor burns. Now, I don't have the calculations for this comparison, but just eye-balling it, it makes sense that the lightning which was melting Revan's mask onto his face, and boiling Revan's skin, would be FAR more potent than lightning that left less than superficial marks on Yoda.
Conclusion:
The end result of this is really very simple. Revan's showings of power are just as impressive, and in some cases, MORE impressive, than Yoda's. So the idea that Yoda is somehow far more powerful than Revan, is laughable in the face of the actual lore. Now, I won't argue that Revan can beat Yoda, I won't argue that Revan can beat Sidious. I'm simply arguing that Revan is COMPARABLE to them, that he'd give them a legitimate challenge.