Posted by "Neotenous"/"insular dwarfism"

🥀 (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-07 17:13:17
There are so many ugly and some very disturbing suggestions here... so I thought of why not a cute pleasing to the eyes "mutation"!
~~~

petite_lionboy_by_bekiss-dcgl92n.png
petite_lionbae2_by_bekiss-dcgozgl.png
petite_lioness_by_bekiss-dcgoqiu.png
petite_lionessby_by_bekiss-dcgp1wc.png
(scroll downer for other mock-up sketches)

*changed name to “neotenous” (used to be called "petite")
other name: "insular dwarfism"



It’s a smaller lion (and cuter)
-Maybe the size of a leopard or cheetah?
lion_cheetah_size_by_bekiss-dcgkxwc.png
-It would be healthy and breed-able. Can be Kinged.
-Inheritable? Can be passed down by both mother and father. ?
-It will be for all age stages. Doesn't need to have different artwork for newborn and young cub, 'cause those are already small (that artwork could be resized smaller, if needed).

The effect it could have in game-play could be:
- That it has less chance when catching big preys (on its one it cannot), but more likely to catch small preys.
- It is harder to breed, more chance to fail breeding, and if bred with Primal there's a 50 chance of cub mortality even with nesting (Primals are huge). *But if this coding is too much trouble then just make them not able to breed with Primals and 25-50% chance of failing breeding for "small" male studs with any non-"small", (females already have a fertility %).
- Shorter gestation periods and sexually mature faster. (took that from wikipedia.) *could be hard to code, so ignore it?
- Stat penalty.

~~~~

mutation_tag2_by_bekiss-dcgl0r7.png

Neoteny: "Some common neotenous physical traits in domesticated animals (mainly dogs, pigs, ferrets, cats, and even foxes) include: floppy ears, changes in reproductive cycle, curly tails, piebald coloration, fewer or shortened vertebra, large eyes, rounded forehead, large ears, and shortened muzzle."(from wikipedia) Neoteny is very common in humans!

This suggestion only refers to mammalian neoteny, and neoteny does not affect every physical traits in all cases:
neoteny = the retention of some juvenile characteristics in adulthood

So in theory, these lions can have normal full manes.

The neotenous lion doesn't need to have shorter gestations and mature sexually faster.

~~~~
Insular dwarfism
the "pygmy elephant" is a good example click and info: click

In looks It's not identical to the "dwarfism" mutation here, because the body is proportionate, limbs will be average or slightly shorter but not really noticeable. (Made edit pics to show that. above.)
This type can be healthy and have a life span similar to their bigger relatives (both the pygmy elephants and asian-african elephants can live up to 70 years, and the pygmy sexually matures faster:10yrs. vs14yrs)


*Got another idea: what if you can get this mutation when breeding with dwarfs?
(edit: Not, 'cause insular dwarfism is completely different from that type of dwarfism that actually deforms the body proportions. and insular dwarfism is evolution/species adapting to an environment.)
petite_lionboy_with_dwarf_by_bekiss-dcgla5l.png

Lioden includes Madagascar? (click) so pygmy lions can be a thing here...?

~~~~

I'm not suggesting amphibian's paedomorphosis (or for this "mutation" to be called Paedomorphosis.) Axolotl are pedomorphic species, but they are not described with the word neoteny (click)

Info! :D (from encyclopedia britannica)
Paedomorphosis: "retention by an organism of juvenile or even larval traits into later life. There are two aspects of paedomorphosis: acceleration of sexual maturation relative to the rest of development (progenesis) and retardation of bodily development with respect to the onset of reproductive activity (neoteny).

Classic examples include certain amphibian species in which development is arrested so that the larval form and aquatic habit persist as the organism attains sexual maturity and becomes capable of reproduction. In some species only a few morphological features are retarded, but the number of features retarded may differ from species to species. Adult humans, for example, display various neotenic body features that other adult primates do not.
In other species all morphological development is retarded; the organism is juvenilized but sexually mature. Such shifts of reproductive capability would appear to have adaptive significance to organisms that exhibit it. In terms of evolutionary theory, the process of paedomorphosis suggests that larval stages and developmental phases of existing organisms may give rise, under certain circumstances, to wholly new organisms."

Source: (click)

~~~~~

It seems, the difference between neoteny and insular dwarfism, (of mammals), is that:
neoteny usually is that juvenile-like traits are being selected for/ passed down) and insular dwarfism happens in isolated groups.

Both seem to be gradual mutations/evolution. both natural and artificial selection pass down the traits of juvenile appearance and smaller size. but in some cases retention of juvenile appearance can be sudden..?

In both, it shouldn't really affect the mane growth, since these animals sexually mature, manes are sexual characteristic, example:
insular dwarfish= pygmy elephants have tusks; and neoteny= human have beards and body-hair (scarce beards/bodyhair is seen in asians, but many do have full long beards).
Mane size and fullness is dependent on its own genes and on hormones mostly.

Lets imagine its a barbary-mane pygmy/neotenous lion? xD

~~~~~

On how to obtains these small lions:
If it's not considered a random mutation maybe this could be the scenarios:
- Your lion bred with a mystery pygmy/neotenous lion and got an offspring. like with the hybrids(Leopons).
- A Rapid evolution like the Primals are (they are rapid-devolution?). Mutie on Demand?
- *You encounter a pygmy/neotenous lioness in explore and claim like the NCLs. Could be during an event only, like the groupies? Or a Raffle lioness. (in this case it will be a special "mutie" only obtained like these?)

*Mutations in these game are not always true mutations, hybrids and ancestrals(evolving back) are called mutations here. Not every "mutation" needs to be super realistic.

~~~~~

fTfwtKs.png
Maybe could be the ofspring of that? 😂 (t'is a joke)

~~~~~~~

Let’s make Lioden Cute! (some balance is needed, its too gory and gruesome)

(It would be awesome it could be bought at some time like a Mutie on Demand item)



This suggestion has 1416 supports and 220 NO supports.



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Edited on 20/07/18 @ 13:01:19 by Zizi 🥀 (#12402)

LittleAntler [BLM] (#30151)


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Posted on
2018-07-08 09:54:25
25 supports would be a lot if it wasn't just over half the number of no supports received. Leopons were never this controversial of an addition.



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Berenos|On hiatus (#84593)

Resurgent
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Posted on
2018-07-08 10:02:22
No support. I'm not against anything being cute, but this just doesn't appeal to me - especially if you compare it to the primordial dwarfism variation.



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Herdy(cleanSunsetPie
) (#14487)

Aztec Knight
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Posted on
2018-07-08 10:10:13
not finding it cute so no support.



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Herdy(cleanSunsetPie
) (#14487)

Aztec Knight
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Posted on
2018-07-08 10:10:14
not finding it cute so no support.



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🥀 (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-08 10:15:14
What isnt cute? The idea of smallness/juvenile appearance or the visual image I tried to make?



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Zen [Sidereal Mott
Primal] (#87530)

Divine
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Posted on
2018-07-08 10:24:15
I don't mind this idea - any type of variation to the standard "dwarf" mutation could be a nice addition to the game, even if it's just a small lineart change. Supported, because... why not! There are far crazier things than this on the site.

Ps. Though the mock-up image looks cute, to me it actually looks more like an overgrown cub with a mane, instead of a smaller adult lion (I think because of the enlarged eyes/face). Just my observation.



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🥀 (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-08 10:29:26

I didn’t use any cub/adol to make the mockup. Only used adult and male dwarf and default lion, by copy paste and a little of selection transfrom. The dwarf eyes are very big had to make then smaller.

I’ll make the male teen mockup version soon.



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Edited on 08/07/18 @ 10:32:31 by Zizi 🥀 (#12402)

Karmo (#98909)

Divine
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Posted on
2018-07-08 13:00:02
Lions producing a primal cub isn't impossible.
It's very possible to have genes de-evolve, humans have been experimenting these things.
Primals aren't fantasy, they exist in real life. That's how we got our cats we know today.

A dwarf variation isn't a bad idea, but having it just be a small lion is a bad idea. There's no significance of it, it's just a small lion. Dwarfism is dwarfism, there's no exceptions to it, there's no tall dwarves, there's just dwarves. A "petite" lion would come with problems, not just that it can't catch big prey. Besides, petite is a word used with attractive women, and not an actual mutation. If there was gonna be a mutation for this, then the lion wouldn't look "cute", it would look small and pretty skinny.
There's just no reason for this "mutation" to be added. It can't be an AMP because Dwarfism is seen at birth, even in the womb. Dwarfism can be fatal as well, in the womb the child can die, and usually they have a shorter lifespan than average humans. That isn't cute. That's awful.



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🥀 (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-08 15:07:10
The only way to recreate a larger and rustic “lion” is by breading it with a tiger. The liger is huge like the ancient lions, it has hybrid vigor (two gene pools combined, and ancestral dormant genes get activated. A lion with lion would only get you another average lion.) what is this primal in other animals that is real? Ancient-like Horses? Well that was recreated/bred-back by selective breeding, not a mutation since it uses existing genes.

If this is added as a dwarf variant then it would be a healthy type of dwarfism since there arent any visible deformation, only smaller in a proportional size. Ive seen this in captive bred cougars, theres a video on fb about a pet cougar that is smaller then average but healthy.... it seems he got stunt growth? Maybe that could be the name for this “mutation”. click for small cougar
That small cougar is damned cuter.




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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-08 15:14:03
Because the animal is kept in a smaller environment that it isn't supposed to be in, that's what stunts growth.
Rex is an adult alligator that is the size of a baby due to being kept in a small enclosure. Stunt growth affects animals, they aren't healthy. Stunted growth can cause animals live a shorter lifespan. I have rescued many animals that were stunted with growth and they aren't perfect and pretty as you think they might be. They have difficulties, they can't walk right, breathe right, or sometimes they would refuse to eat.

Besides, that cougar should not be held in a household. That is considered illegal and animal abuse UNLESS you have a permit to take care of rescued animals and the animal is unable to be released back into the wild. Even then it should be properly taken care of by a big cat rescue team and not be kept in a flat, because as the cougar has gone through, stunted growth is one possibly that can happen. Wild animals being kept as "pets" have much shorter lifespans than their wild counterparts.



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🥀 (#12402)

Heavenly
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Posted on
2018-07-08 15:17:38
Please dont get animal right activist here >_> dont want that kind of drama here.

Stunt growth can happen by mutation or disease. Animal recovers gets healthy but doest reach its adult size. Thats is the only type of stuntness I suggest here.



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Edited on 08/07/18 @ 15:20:04 by Zizi 🥀 (#12402)

Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-08 15:20:01
And Devolution is possible without the help of humans. If in a necessary condition, an animal's offspring may have genes that a previous ancestor had, and its offspring may have more of the genes, and so on. And when mated with a partner who has those genes as well, the possibility becomes greater.

This can even be a form of Evolution. Evolution isn't always progressive, it can increase a certain strength that can be beneficial, or not beneficial at all. Lions becoming bigger, big enough to catch much larger prey, isn't impossible. Especially during a time of famine and lions becoming cannibals.



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Karmo (#98909)

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Posted on
2018-07-08 15:26:23
Disturbances in health can cause stunted growth. Other factors can be serious organ conditions (brain, heart, etc), bowel diseases, chromosomal abnormalities (like Down Syndrome), cushing syndrome, and other genetic syndromes. It's even said that stress can stunt growth.
Which means: Stunted growth isn't healthy. Stunted growth is permanent. Things caused by stunted growth can get a bit better, but not fully recover, like Rex's snout being curved upwards.



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LittleAntler [BLM] (#30151)


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Posted on
2018-07-08 16:28:38
You can't tell someone not to go 'animal right's activist' when you're calling the abuse of wild animals 'cute'. Holding a wild animal in a human household isn't only cruel, it's also extremely dangerous. What you're essentially saying is that this dangerous and inhumane situation is cute, merely because you want an animal that's cute and cuddly. Sure, there's a chance that a lion could be selectively bred to become smaller - But you know what the thing is? Lions have evolved to this size for a reason. They need to hunt large prey. The 'small prey' you want these lions to be able to catch aren't calorically dense enough to keep a grown lion running. Sure, these small lions would enjoy the protection of their larger pridemates, so they wouldn't die. But no lion will purposefully selectively breed themselves into a stunted, small state. You also grossly misunderstand the issues with hybridizing animals. There's no such thing as 'hybrid vigor' in ligers. They're prone to bone issues, obesity, and often die a premature death. Sure, there's some healthy examples, but guess how many like them had to die before they came around?

Guess what you'd get with animals with stunted growth? A lot of the same problems. You're defending your stance on your mutations in all the wrong ways. You're literally just suggesting a lion that's small and cute with no scientific backing - And guess what the primals started out with? Scientific backing. They were based on North American Cave Lions, an extinct species. These tiny animals have no backing in relations to lions. Throughout the progression of this thread, you've been picking at straws to support your stance rather than taking a step back to reevaluate why people dislike the idea and fixing it constructively.



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Cerebus (#38409)

Scourge of Lions
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Posted on
2018-07-08 16:32:51
Not sure if anybody has said this yet but maybe this would be better as a decor? Like tigers eye and all those w/ the cub stages? It's cute and I'd love to see it in game but I'm not sure if it would fit as a mut? super cute though!



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